An Interview with Penny Grubb

Of False Money and of Free Money

An interview with Penny Grubb

Gods, I talk too much.

Listening back to the tape of my interview with Penny Grubb, author and chair of the Author's Licensing & Collecting Society (ALCS), it becomes painfully obvious why I won't ever make a career as a journalist or an interviewer. I am opinionated, talkative, and prone to drag the poor interviewee off on wild tangents about things that have nothing to do with their writing and are, at best, wild speculations about some aspect of writing or publishing that has been in the news.

The problem was that there was just too many things I wanted to ask Penny about. She is quite possibly one of the most productive and organised people that I have ever met. She is a published novelist with two crime novels - Like False Money and The Doll Makers - to her credit, she is a respected academic in Health Informatics, has written academic books and "how to" guides, is chair of the ALCS and also manages to have a life.

Impossible, you say? Well if you've ever struggled to find time to write, then read on.

Oh, and did I mention the fact that the ALCS can bring in some extra income for UK based published writers – without them having to lift a finger? Free money, I hear you shout? Read on to find out more.

Hello Penny! Have you always wanted to be a novelist?

I can remember deciding that I was going to be a novelist when I was about four, although it wasn't a very structured decision. I even wrote my first story before I went to school; it was all of two lines long, I think. I then won a writing competition when I was nine. I have a certificate but unfortunately I don't recall any of the details about the story.

Obviously I started out at a young age. Success breeds success, and it was only fifty years later that I became a published novelist!

What started you writing as an adult?

I've dabbled in fiction most my life but I've always had jobs that involved me writing non-fiction. Mostly it has been technical tomes for the EU, as well as my medical writing in the mid nineties about medical informatics. I wrote a few text books during that period, too. Around that time I decided that I should give the novel writing a real go.

So how did you approach writing your first novel?

I deliberately went out to learn the craft. I bought so many books about how to write and went on a few writing course. I found the quality variable – back then I didn't know what was good or bad, so I learnt as I went along. I was writing one or two novels a year and trying them out. They weren't getting anywhere, but I was learning as I went along.

So when did you make your breakthrough in regards to publication?

A real breakthrough cane when I won the Crimewriter's Debut Dagger in 2004. I had pulled out an old draft of a book I'd given up on years before, but I knew it had a great opening. Since the Debut Dagger was judged on the opening chapter, I polished it up and entered it. It won, which was fantastic – only then I had agents and publishers wanting to talk to me, but no book – at least, not a book that was attached to the winning chapter!

It that point I had three other books that had received interest from publishers and agents (crime, romance and a children's book – I'm a diverse writer!), but I was working on rewriting another crime book for a publisher, so I had to put them all to one side. I've gone back to them now and they are all currently on submission. I'm a big believer in the slogan "Persistence Pays Off!"

Out of all the areas you have written in, why have you specialised in crime?

I like reading it. I have a flippant answer which is that when a woman reaches a certain age her thoughts turn away from romance and towards crime! But the truth is I don't know. I like reading crime but I like a lot of other genres too, although I don't know how good I am at those.

What type of writer are you? A plotter or a seat-of-pantser?

I am a planner now, but I wasn't when I started. That was the problem with the Debut Dagger book – I just thought it was a good opening and hadn't a clue where it would go. It was a real nightmare, I had to rewrite it from scratch. I lost count of how many times I had to rewrite that book. I'm not afraid to rewrite anymore, look at it that way!

Having said that I don't plot to the depths of say, Jeffrey Deaver, who can apparently write up to 300 page plans.

When I write, I always know the overall plot lines and I know where it is going to finish before I start. There are always gaps and bits where I'm not sure how I'll get from point a to b, but I've found that as I write the book it will suddenly come to me. I don't know whether it is my subconscious working on it in the background, but it seems to work for me.

You said earlier that you read a lot of "how to" books and attended writing courses. Did you pick up any specific writing techniques from these, such as character sheets, things like that?

I don't do detailed character sheets. I went through all that when I was learning the craft but it didn't work for me. Having said that I do keep track of things like how old they are. I've caught myself out on things like hair colour changing, etc, so I should probably do more than that!

I do keep the timeline of the book in a spreadsheet that details the events and over all plot in stages. With False Money I had a particular year in mind for the book to be set, so I had the right dates to specific days of the week, the weather records and the phases of the moon. I needed it because there were things happening at night, so I couldn't say "it was pitch black" if it was a full moon on a clear night. It was all in my spreadsheet though so was easy enough to check. If the writer doesn't someone else will after it is published so you need to get it right.

You've written in several fields, from academic through to fiction. Do you have a preference?

They are such different things but my preference is probably fiction.

Can you tell us about how you came to write "How to write a textbook"? Was it very different from you other experiences of writing?

I just rang up the publisher one day and asked whether or not they had a book on how to write textbooks. They said no, and I replied "well, would you like one?"

I had to do a lot of selling, and between me and my co-author we were able to put together a credible enough CV that they commissioned the book. It literally came about from me just ringing up and asking!

It was quite different from any of my other writing, in that it was written to a very strict template, right down to section headings within the chapters. This was because it was part of an established line and had to conform.

You sound very busy! Do you have an agent to help you out?

Well I had an agent for a while, and that was really helpful in terms of structuring the books and theories as well as for learning about the market. In the end we parted company – amicably – because it became quite clear I wasn't going to write the sort of books she wanted in her stable. Then I went out and found my own publisher, and sold my first novel by myself to independent publishers Robert Hale.

I'd re-written the book attached to the chapter that won the Debut Dagger, which is actually the third in a series. I'd pretty much completed the first book, so they bought the two together and published them in chronological order. The second book I only had in outline and I just couldn't write it fast enough, so that one is going to be published third, early next year.

Since you are effectively acting as your own agent, how do you deal with things like foreign rights, et cetera?

Well I don't entirely know! Obviously my publisher, Robert Hale, own the rights but they only print in hardback. If I want to sell the paperback rights, or indeed the foreign rights, then I'm going to have to go out to get them myself. I've already got them considered for large print and audio at the moment. Small publishers just don't have the resources to do it for you.

So do you think it is worth having an agent, then?

I would quite like to go and get an agent now, to be honest. If I get interest in one of the other projects currently on submission I would probably take that to an agent.

If you can get an agent it is well worth it. So many publishers won't even look at unsolicited works. If you haven't got an agent the only other way I can think of to get a large publisher to look at your work is for you to attend one of the writing conferences at Winchester or York, where you can pay for a one-to-one with editors and publishers. There's no guarantee they'll take it on, though.

There is a growing onus on writers to organise and promote their books themselves. What advice would you give to new writers about this issue?

Networking is vital! Twitter is good for this, as if LinkedIn and Facebook, but also doing book signings, etc, to meet more people.

I was jotting down marketing ideas even before I was published. That way you've got something to go at and you can hit the ground running. Marketing is the author's job these days. It is totally unrealistic to think any other way.

I'm an organisation anorak so I actually schedule in time to keep up with social networking as part of my writing. I would recommend reading books by David Allen about how to structure your time and help you be more productive. Brilliant book.

Your books are published by a small independent publisher, Robert Hale. Which do you think are better, the small publishing houses or the larger ones?

It's a difficult one to answer. In some ways it is better to be with a big publisher – for a start you get more money. But the flip side is that they don't tend to look after you so well. I know writers who have been published with Robert Hale as well as other, large publishers, and they agree that our publisher really does look after you and is in it to build up a long term relationship. The only problem I have with them is that they only produce hard back books. I need to investigate selling the paperback rights to my novels – it is on my "to do" list.

When you start out writing it can be a frustrating, lonely and sometimes heartbreaking process. How did you cope in the early days, before you were published?

I had ups and downs. There were certainly times when I felt like "I will never get published!" I sent every single book that I'd written to publishers or agents, and looking back now I can see how it developed. The first book came back like it was on a bungee rope, but gradually the rejections became more personalised – nicer, for want of a better word. Then it started to be – "Yes, I like this, but would you change this...?" So eventually I got there.

Remember, everyone wants to give up when you get rejections. You just have to keep on going and keep on improving.

Okay so with two busy jobs – one in London, one in Hull – your duties with the ALCS and your work as a writer, how on earth do you manage to keep everything going? What advice would you give to someone struggling to keep all the balls in the air?

Become an anorak over organisation. I can't work to a strict schedule because my jobs make that impossible. However I am disciplined about just not letting things build up. It's too easy to put annoying little tasks or putting off phone calls, but I'm good at making myself do them. It is about organisation. I have to keep track of things to keep it all going.

I literally schedule everything in to my diary and set up reminders, etc. Sometimes my reminder list for that day is ridiculous so I have to prioritise. But I would recommend the David Allen book Getting Things Done whole heartedly.

Also, have regular clear-outs. Sometimes you have to go through old to-do lists, work out which tasks will simply never get done, bin them and forget them. Also, try to keep your email inbox as clear as possible.

If you have a system that you trust in place, then you don't have to keep it all in your head. It is when you are carrying every single task in your head that you feel overwhelmed. Allowing yourself time to just think is very important for writers, and you need head space for that.

Let's talk about the ALCS. Who are they, why should writers care, and what's all this about free money for writers?

The Author's Licensing & Collecting Society was set up just over 30 years ago. It collects monies for UK authors from a variety of sources that would be impossible to negotiate on a one-by-one basis. These sources are things like foreign private copying levies, photocopying rights, audio visual uses, and so on. This is money due to writers that they otherwise wouldn't get because it has to go through a collecting body.

ALCS is the largest writer's organisation in the world. We have over 75,000 members now. We're talking about millions of pounds being paid out over the years (£213million over 30 years to be exact – Gem).

There are many writers out there who don't even know they are entitled to this money. Academic writers in particular are bad for not joining, maybe because they don't think they are entitled to anything because they think the journal took the rights when as a matter of fact they often are. People really don't think about it, but these are uses of people's work for which they are entitled to be paid. It isn't possible to negotiate all the uses on a case-by-case basis, which is where collecting agencies such as the ALCS comes in.

You just go to the website www.ALCS.co.uk and join up online. A lot of writers say they like us because you don't have to do anything with ALCS. We chase the money and write the cheques.

So more money for no more effort or work?

There is a one off payment of £25 but it comes off the first royalties cheque so you don't pay anything up front. If you are a member of the Society of Authors you get free membership of the ALCS.

The website goes into more detail about how it all works. We represent most writers – academic writers, novelists, poets, etc – just check the website for a full list.

I have to admit I didn't think about these as sources of revenue for writers. Do you think a lot of new writers misunderstand aspects of the writing and publishing industry?

I am sure people do. I suppose the reason people don't think about the various methods of payment open to authors is because most people become writers because they want to write, not because they are interested in Rights issues. You learn these things gradually. It is amazing how many people think that the author still owns the book rights rather than the publisher, or that the author owns rights to the book cover. New writers really need to educate themselves about the legal aspects of the business

Do you have a goal for your writing?

Not really! All my life writing has just gone down its own path, and that's the way I like it. I never know which strand will pick back up!

HUGE thanks to Penny for chatting away to me about so many things but especially for educating me about the Author's Licensing & Collecting Society. A totally informal poll by me on twitter and facebook revealed a mixed response from writers about whether or not they were members, and how much they knew about the ALCS

From my discussion with Penny I would suggest that, if you are a published UK writer, then go and check them out. At the end of the day, you really don't have anything to lose. If you are a member of the Society of Authors then membership is free, but even if you sign up independently the one off membership charge is deducted from your first Royalties cheque, so you never pay directly from your own pocket, and this is money you would not otherwise access. You don't have to do anything except fill out one form in order to access a potential new source of revenue. Or as I like to think of it, free money.

So... why aren't you a member again?

Penny's website is here, the ALCS is here, Penny tweets over here and her publisher is here. If you're based in Yorkshire then get yourself down to Hedon Library on December 2nd for a talk by Penny (and say hello to the supervisor, Jenny Ward, who is one of my closest friends and especially ace if you need recommendations for new paranormal romance authors).

Penny is awesome. Go check her out.